Skip to main content

Reply to this post | See parent post | Go Back
View Post [edit]

Poster: Tyler Date: May 11, 2003 2:23am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ogg Vorbis?

i don't know a whole lot about ogg, but from what i do know is that the reason it has such a small file size is that it uses a lossy compression algorithum, like mp3's do. this archive is for loss-less formats only (.shn, .flac, and i guess .ape is supposed to be ok here?)

the file size and extra 10 minutes you have to wait to download is nothign compared with the 10 years these shows will be around for. so wait a few extra minutes so you can get loss-less files.

Reply to this post
Reply

Poster: 2muchtv Date: May 11, 2003 6:06am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ogg Vorbis?

Thanks for the post back. Per the Vorbis website FAQ, OGG is *not* loss-less, so apparently it won't fit "the requirements."

I don't have the connection speed or disk space to download the existing files from the audio archive, so I guess I'll never hear this music - so much for "accessibility..."

I guess you STILL have to have money (in this case, for broadband and a new computer) to listen to recorded music in the good old USA...

Seems a bit counter to the whole concept of an archive...

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: wharfrat Date: May 11, 2003 7:58am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ogg Vorbis?

Actualy it is lossy. This is from the Vorbis faq at http://www.vorbis.com/faq.psp#lossy

There are two broad classes of compression algorithms:

lossy
Lossy compression algorithms discard data in order to compress it better than would normally be possible. Examples include JPEG, Vorbis, and MP3 compression. lossless
Lossless compression algorithms produce compressed data that can be decoded to output that is identical to the original. Zip is a common general-purpose lossless compression format; FLAC is a lossless compression format that is specifically designed for audio.

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: bleblanc Date: May 11, 2003 10:37am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ogg Vorbis?

I don't have the connection speed or disk space to download the existing files from the audio archive, so I guess I'll never hear this music - so much for "accessibility..."

It'll still be here when you replace your 486. It will still be here when a high speed connection comes at the price that dial up does right now. It'll still be lossless, and it will still be free to access any files that are here.

I'm sorry it's not easy to access them now, but at some point I'm sure you'll have a newer computer and quicker connection - at which point you can dig in (to a much larger collection by that point I might add).

In the meantime, most these bands have mp3's on their websites for those that are bandwidth challenged.

As to adding files encoded with a lossy format, that was discussed (at length) and ended with enough of the community voicing that they didn't want to see mp3/vorbis etc... here since it "pollutes" the pool. For more on this, please search the older forum posts for "mp3".

-Brad

This post was modified by bleblanc57 on 2003-05-11 17:37:23

Reply to this post
Reply

Poster: 2muchtv Date: May 11, 2003 11:29am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ogg Vorbis?

Typical of the elitism that permeates the web these days. "I have broadband, so everyone must have it... pity the poor bandwidth challenged!"

I'm so comforted that the arrogant elitists who have appointed themselves gods of archive have "discussed this at great length," how impolite of a "bandwidth challenged" peon like me to question their unerring judgement.

Perhaps you could lower yourselves to explain why those who donated video content are willing to suffer the indignity of "lossy" file compression to make that content available. Are videophiles just more thoughtful than audio-snobs? How is it that the makers of computer animated videos and industrial films don't seem to be losing any sleep over "polluting the pool?" Just which pool are you worried about polluting, anyway - the pool of music files, or the pool of listeners?

Denigrating my hardware and connectivity will not make the archive more accessible. These pathetic, hypocritical, pusillanimous misanthropes pound their chests and scream long and loud about access and archives, then spit on anyone who has the temerity to ask to be let into their exclusive little club. Tell me again how this is different from the RIAA?

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: bleblanc Date: May 11, 2003 12:56pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ogg Vorbis?

I'll make it easier for you 2muchtv. Here's a link to the discussion.

http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=5113

-Brad

P.S. I apologize for the "486" comment. I was out of line, but I don't consider 1GB of space on a computer that can reach the internet (even via dial-up) a luxury - especially when you're looking for music to download. I'm surprised how upset you got, I'm sorry, I should have bit my tongue.

P.P.S. Yes, that's me defending mp3's and taking your view on the argument that smaller files should have a place here for convenience. It's a good point, I supported it (and still do), but there seems to be a large portion of the tapers that vehemently reject that notion and may decide not to upload music. At the time it came up, that seemed more important than making the files a convenient download for fans on dial-up or allowing folks to download samples.

(No matter what tone you read into this post, there is no "chest thumping" nor "screaming long and loud" intended)

This post was modified by bleblanc57 on 2003-05-11 19:56:54

Reply to this post
Reply

Poster: 2muchtv Date: May 11, 2003 4:33pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ogg Vorbis?

Thank you, I appreciate that.

I'm a left over angry sixties radical who is way to wound up about disparity in digital access.

None of this is the fault of anyone here, and I shouldn't be so cross. Going ballistic in this forum won't improve accessibility, either :)

I've been volunteering since 1985, teaching basic computer skills in small, rural communities, libraries and colleges. I currently teach classes in MS apps, HTML and FTP, PC/MAC maintenance and crash recovery.

I walk around angry because most net users aren't aware of these folks because non-users never log on and tells us who they are, what they need, or that they even exist.

For example: (from the Pew Internet Project - these are last years figures, I hope they've improved)

Only a little over half (58%) of all Americans are on line, only 12% have broadband.

Only 23.5% of Black and only 23.6% of Hispanic households are on line.

Only 12.7% of households earning less than $15,000 per year are on line.

Only 11.7% of households headed by persons with less than a high school education have Internet access.

Rural areas, though still lagging behind urban areas, have surpassed inner-cities in Internet availability and use - Urban 42.3%, Rural 38.9%, Central City 37.7%

38% of disabled Americans go online, compared to 58% of all Americans.

24% of all Americans are *truly* offline; they have no direct or indirect experience with the Internet. Can you imagine such a thing? One FOURTH!

And online doesn't mean broadband, or even good dial-up. Many small public dial-up systems (libraries and colleges) still use 28.8 dial-ups with a 2 hour per day limit. I can give you some phone numbers and id/passwords for access, if you'd like to relive the glory days of 28.8 :)

I'll go drink some tea now and say "ommmmmm"

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: Diana Hamilton Date: May 12, 2003 11:46am
Forum: etree Subject: Donations, LMA> bricks and mortar libraries?

Hmm, the mention of libraries in this context suddenly reminded me of an idea some folks had a couple years back in etree.org and environs. They wondered about making copies of some of their tradable shows and just donating them to local public libraries, since these days libraries tend to have CDs along with books and videos.

At the time the consensus was that it would probably just be a hassle for the library, given the lack of solidity from their point of view- having to take a fan's word for it that the band was OK with it, no "paperwork" etc.

But what about now that there's this online, respectable library that people could point to as a source? A slip of paper could be put in witha CD labelling it as from the Internet Archive (perhaps with relevant urls for librarians to check into). Maybe it'd similar in spirit to the Bookmobile printing out copies from the text archives for little libraries.

So, would it be doable/allowable for altruistic, broadband music fans to strike off copies of a few favorite shows for the public library or school library down the road?

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: sjspaulding Date: May 11, 2003 12:06pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ogg Vorbis?

While I would never dream of comparing the archive to the RIAA I'm not exactly sure why these files can't be offered in more than one format. Many of the movies are offered in a variety of formats including MPEG2, MPEG1, Divx, Realmedia, and Quicktime. I think that it is in the archives best interest to mantain collections that offer the highest quality content available but they offer the best video, MPEG2, as well as some other formats. If I have the time I like to download the large MPEG2 video files but often I download the divx versions simply for convienence. After all I'm not trying to archive this content myself, I'm simply trying to access and enjoy it. Adding other formats, such as ogg vorbis, to the audio section would not necessarily pollute the pool as long as access to the higher quality versions was still avaliable. If the archive wants to move closer to being a digital library I think access to other formats would be a positive feature. I'll end by saying that I, even with cable internet, would be able to check out a lot more of these cool bands if I didn't have to wait half a day to download a show.

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: datgeek Date: May 11, 2003 12:23pm
Forum: etree Subject: Other formats Was "Ogg Vorbis?"

my 0.02$ here

there is alot more to it than what is said here.
It is all about LOSSLESS audio archiving.
there are many bands and tapers that do not want the music in ANY format that is NOT lossless.

If you want to take a SHN or FLAC show and make MP3's (or any other lossy format) to hear on your portable player that is all fine and dandy. the problem is that we do not want these lossy formats to get spread.

maybe people with gripes about large filesizes should consider a long forgotten method of trading called B&P (Blanks & Postage) or as a previous post mentiond, many bands have MP3's and such on there websites that you could download.

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: Diana Hamilton Date: May 11, 2003 11:45pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Resurrecting the LlaMA Ride- for 2muchtv

OK, now that Jon has the iafm p2p thing that should make "random" d/l much more convenient for broadbanders, perhaps this idea is more workable again (had been pretty much shelved after the bandwidth crunch and IP limits):
LlaMA Ride idea

I'm stuck on dialup at home indefinitely (sob), but I've been testing the IAFM here at work and as a byproduct, I have just sitting around:

New Monsoon 4/27/03
and supposedly 16 min from now, I'll have
Jason Mraz 1/15/03

2muchtv, if you would like one of these shows on audio CD burned from the lossless glory of SHN (see FAQ), or would like an archival SHN copy of either so you can produce multiple lossless audio copies in the future, email me at the address you'll find on the shn faq link above.

Sorry other folks, I can only take 2muchtv for the b&p since I'd have to do it using work resources here. However, I understand a lot of people have been downloading these 2 shows using the IAFM, so perhaps others can offer other b&ps to people. Show how different y'all are from RIAA goons. ;)

Diana

PS- I should note that llama ride or not, tons of downloaders do go on to distribute shows from here through trading venues such as db.etree.org and phishhook.com. No broadband is needed to participate at those sites. In the past, I've dealt with db.etree.org through a 14.4.

This post was modified by hamilton on 2003-05-12 06:45:15

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: Jonathan Aizen Date: May 11, 2003 12:05pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ogg Vorbis?

Personally I think that MP3s should be available, just as MPEG1 and RM are made available for movies. By no means would the master, lossless, version ever be removed, but having a lower quality version would increase the accessibility of these concerts dramatically. The problem is that bands, tapers, and many community members refuse to budge on this point. It's a shame if you ask me, but I don't know what can be done about it.

I wouldn't, however, take offense at the comments made in this thread. The fact that most people do have broadband is a given - this site is geared toward that (e.g. 100 search reuslts by default instead of 10). Keep in mind that a full concert in MP3 would be large too (nearing 200MB for some shows), and would take countless hours over a slow conenction. And there is something to be said for only having lossless compression in that then there is much less of a chance that a poor quality copy of a concert will become circulated.

Anyway, my two cents...

This post was modified by Jonathan Aizen on 2003-05-11 19:05:49

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: scott brown Date: May 12, 2003 9:47am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ogg Vorbis?

>>Seems a bit counter to the whole concept of an archive...<<


actually, archiving by posting files with thrown out data seems counter to the concept of an archive. if you're going to archive, archive something in it's entirety, not compressed with lost information

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: gsisak Date: May 12, 2003 11:09am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ogg Vorbis?

"I don't have the connection speed or disk space to download the existing files from the audio archive, so I guess I'll never hear this music - so much for "accessibility..."

I guess you STILL have to have money (in this case, for broadband and a new computer) to listen to recorded music in the good old USA... "

in regard to this, quit your bitching. there are tons of people without broadband internet access. you could always get a b+p of a show you're looking for. it costs near to nothing to send off blank cd's and return postage. then you'll be able to listen to recorded music in the good old USA. one last thing. it's a free service. lots of people voluteer lots of time to make this work. if you don't like, don't use it.